Circumcision - its effects

[Dragon]

Ignorance plays a major part in acceptance of the social status-quo.  Saying that we didn't know better should be a valid reason for many things.
Blame attaches itself to someone who knows better and goes ahead and does it anyway.  Though, in our society, we are all too often blamed for doing things we didn't know the right or wrong of.  Hindsight is 20-20.

[nightsong]

Sorry if I reopened old wounds for you nightsong. You're not to blame. I know you're dealing with a lot of other stuff right now too, so my apologies. Sometimes my rage and frustration just overflows.

No worries, it wasn't opening up old wounds.  I do feel sadness and guilt when I think about it, but not overwhelmingly so.  I know that I did the best with the (no) information that I had at the time.  I do appreciate your concern and consideration.

[no_escape]

Here's a video of an Egyptian man talking about being circumcised at age 10 and how it affected him. He talks a lot about suicidal feelings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqsK14axa0w

He also translated and wrote out the text of the video since it is long:

https://ia601805.us.archive.org/28/items...Mother.txt

Some extracts:

Describing the day he was circumcised

and one day when i was 10 years old my mother asked me to go out of home with her, when i asked her where we are going she said we are going for a short journey and we will be back home right away, i agreed to go out with my mother because i trust her and i feel safe with her, because i know she wouldn't hurt me and wouldn't expose me to danger for any reason.

we entered a hospital and met our older brother and greeted him and then we sat on waiting chairs for a short period. i asked my mother why are we here but she didn't respond and she said we won't be late we will back home right away, and i knew from my mother that she paid 75 pounds for hospital but i didn't know why she had paid so i kept silent because i didn't feel danger

after a while my mother and brother gone to an employee sitting at office and they talked to him. i didn't understand what they were talking about but i was stunned when the employee
asked me to take off my trousers, i was shocked & refused and kept silent Then i looked at my mother and my brother. i wanted to ask them why that man is asking me to take off my trousers and why you don't protect me from him so as not to hurt me, but they kept silent without a reaction. then the employee suddenly reached out his hands to me and took off my trousers and my underwear by himself to see my genital.

i got more shocked and felt fear and insecurity, then we sat back on the waiting chairs. i begun crying and telling my mother i want to leave this place but both my mother and brother were silent like if i don't talk or crying. after a while a doctor was coming out of an operating room and he told my mother that he is ready

i didn't understand what he was ready for .. i didn't know ..

and my mother grabbed my hands and said to me \"go with the doctor\" and i refused and cried so hard until the doctor grabbed me from my hand and brought me to the operating room and locked the door. that time i started crying severely with tears. i was shocked not knowing what to do.

there were 4 people inside the room, a young doctor and a nurse among them held me
and strapped me down to a bed. there was an elderly doctor on my left and a young doctor and a nurse in front of my legs and another young doctor on my right.

i was crying, screaming and calling my mother but i found the elderly doctor ignoring
my crying and my tears in cold blood and giving me anesthetic injection in the back of my hand. i was still crying.

after taking the injection i felt dizzy and started to lose my consciousness a little, i saw the young doctor and the nurse taking off my trousers and my underwear and spreading my legs. i felt them holding my genitals. i started to stop crying from the impact of anesthesia. i wasn't able to move my limbs at all. i wasn't even able to move my eyes but i felt everything. i felt great pain while they were starting the surgery and cutting off my genitals

i completely lost my consciousness minutes after the surgery started, the moment i lost my consciousness was the worst moment in my whole life, i felt that i had lost everything in my life. i lost safety, confidence in my mother who i was always knowing she would protect me from any danger and harm, and that she would risk her life to protect me. i felt intense rage, intense desire for revenge and i felt helplessness that i can't protect myself. i felt horrible pain, i felt i lost my virginity forever. i lost so much values in my life. i lost the value of loyalty, honesty, trust and love.

moments before i lose my consciousness i prayed to God to make this moment the last moment in my life. i prayed that i don't wake up from the surgery except in my grave.

i lost consciousness and when i woke up few hours later i found myself lying on another bed. my clothes was gone and i was wearing only a Coftan (long full robe). my mother and brother were on my left looking at me. the first word i said after i woke up was \"mama\". i called my mother, i was wishing to ask her :
\"what did i do to hurt you, what did i do to you when i came to life to hurt me and leaving me to those 4 people to rape me, slay me and kill me in cold blood ?\"

why .. why mom ?

but i kept silent because i was in intense shock .. i kept silent and didn't say anything. but i knew from the moment i woke up .. i knew i will never be the same again. i felt like i died and the person who woke up was another person, not me. i felt that Zakareya is dead at the
moment he lost consciousness.

the price of raping and killing me was 75 pounds. since this day everything in my life changed to the worst. my relationship with God worsened because i felt God stopped protecting me the day i was in hospital. i stopped praying and i began to move away from Quran and mosques. i felt lonely and began to be introverted and moving away of people.

at age of 11, i was once praying the afternoon prayer and i prayed to God to let me die. it was the first time in my life to pray to God to let me die. i was feeling unbearable intense pain in my genitals when i was entering the bathroom

Asking a doctor about restoring foreskin and trying to talk to his mother

when we gone to doctor and asked him, he replied sarcastically and said :
\"so, you want us to remove your thigh skin and stick it onto your penis ?\"

i was shocked by his answer but i expected that because my trust in doctors is not-existent. and i know they will never say the truth. i didn't reply him back, and kept silent. when we left, my mother tried to convince me that doctor is right, like if she proved her point of view and that i do not have a problem and that all what i suffer from is only delusions and psychological illness, and that i got to go to a psychotherapist.

my mother described my pain, injustice, defeating, helplessness to protect myself and sorrow for myself feelings and all physical, sexual and neurological problems which happened to me during the whole past years that it is only delusions .. and psychological illness.

i refused her words, when she saw me crying she said a sentence that shocked me, she said ..
\"you are crying over a piece of skin ? i swear if i knew that i would circumcise you when you were a baby so you won't remember anything\"

i was shocked by her words, it was the second worst moment in my life.

[Dragon]

Interesting article that prompted me to go looking around the web for the age of circumcision in Islam.  To my surprise I found there is none! 

While Judaism typically requires that the Bris (circumcision) be performed at around 7 days of age, Islam simply requires <?> that the male be circumcised before puberty, before joining the congregation of Islam. The reference to Judaism, BTW, is appropriate since circumcision derives from the Abrahamic tradition followed in varying degrees by Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

This story, to me is horrific; to take a child who hasn't - apparently - been prepared in any way into a hospital to be circumcised is the ultimate in cruelty. Even in the most remote of the African Islamic tribes, where circumcision is considered the rite of passage from childhood to adulthood the boys are instructed - what will happen, how it will happen and of course the "joyous but painful" passage from child to adult.

[no_escape]

I think most people would agree that it is a cruel thing to do. And yet, they seem to have no problem doing the same thing to an infant because "he won't remember it." Does that mean it's OK to commit cruel acts on people as long as they don't remember it? Or is it that infants are not considered people? Or are we to believe that a baby doesn't feel the same pain and terror that this man describes just because they can't say so in words?

[Dragon]

no_escape, I *do* have to play devils advocate here a bit.  There were times, from (basically) pre-history to as late as the early part of the last century where people were quite often logistically incapable of keeping a standard of cleanliness that we now take for granted (unless you live in the middle of nowhere, like I do!) I think even those who are intactivists educate parents to the need for personal hygiene.  Disease, to include genital disease ran rampant among people even just 200 years ago. (Witness the flu epidemic of 1918 that killed approximately 10% of American and no, I'm not blaming that epidemic on the presence of circumcision) Circumcision as a prophylactic measure was immeasurably better than the alternatives.
To turn the table on you, is it better that a child be circumcised or to experience Balanitis, HIV or cancer - all of which occur at a higher rate among the uncircumcised that the circumcised male.
What I found most horrific about the incident you describe is not the circumcision itself but that the child was so unprepared for it in any means.  With few exceptions circumcision is a requirement to take part in the community of Islam.
Answering you questions:
No, it's not 'okay' to commit a cruel act on another (whether they can remember it or not). In many societies (some even today), because of child death, children were not regarded as people until they had reached 3 - 5 years.
Expanding on that, however, beyond the moral issues you bring to the table are also the religious issues, if one believes firmly that circumcision (as much as baptism) is a requirement for salvation are you and I the people to tell them they're wrong?

[no_escape]

no_escape, I *do* have to play devils advocate here a bit.  There were times, from (basically) pre-history to as late as the early part of the last century where people were quite often logistically incapable of keeping a standard of cleanliness that we now take for granted (unless you live in the middle of nowhere, like I do!) I think even those who are intactivists educate parents to the need for personal hygiene.  Disease, to include genital disease ran rampant among people even just 200 years ago. (Witness the flu epidemic of 1918 that killed approximately 10% of American and no, I'm not blaming that epidemic on the presence of circumcision) Circumcision as a prophylactic measure was immeasurably better than the alternatives.

To turn the table on you, is it better that a child be circumcised or to experience Balanitis, HIV or cancer - all of which occur at a higher rate among the uncircumcised that the circumcised male.
What I found most horrific about the incident you describe is not the circumcision itself but that the child was so unprepared for it in any means.  With few exceptions circumcision is a requirement to take part in the community of Islam.

The so called medical benefits of circumcision are not supported by the data. An Oxford grad student tackles the medical aspect very thoroughly in this article:

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/201...-medicine/

There's also a short video from a Canadian doctor addressing those claims of reduced chance of disease:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi6A7wP7dKw

Answering you questions:
No, it's not 'okay' to commit a cruel act on another (whether they can remember it or not). In many societies (some even today), because of child death, children were not regarded as people until they had reached 3 - 5 years.
Expanding on that, however, beyond the moral issues you bring to the table are also the religious issues, if one believes firmly that circumcision (as much as baptism) is a requirement for salvation are you and I the people to tell them they're wrong?

I don't believe religious tolerance should extend to allowing people to violate children's bodies. In the West, we have no qualms about calling female circumcision mutilation, and making it an illegal practice. These people who insist that male genitals must be cut due to religion are free to cut their own when they are of age. Until that time, religion is not a free pass to do irreversible, non medical surgery on a healthy child.

[Dragon]

For everything you can pull up off the web, I could find a counter argument ... just as you can for anything I post.

Do I agree with you in major part, yes I do.  But when someone keeps coming at me with "I'm right, you're wrong" in all cases,  then I don't see a lot of sense in continuing the discussion because it isn't one any more.

By the way, my comment regarding current issues with disease among males came from the CDC, not a grad student.

[Dragon]

After a bit of thought and more discussion I realize that I owe no_escape an apology for the way I responded.

I called him down for expressing an opinion that he believes very strongly in - and I completely disregarded his feelings in the issue.

To add insult to injury, I exercised a "one ups man ship" that I would not have accepted from anyone.  Possibly the frosting on the cake.

You have my sincere and heartfelt apology for that - I never mean to hurt anyone here, intentionally or otherwise.  //al

[no_escape]

I accept the apology and I apologize as well for escalating into a fight on one who doesn't deserve it. This is an issue where before I even open my mouth I already feel persecuted and belittled, so from the start I am on the defensive. I hate the silence that surrounds it, yet if this is how I react, is it not wise to be silent about it around me? There are better people than I am fighting to end it, and I should leave the fight to my betters instead of making enemies for no reason. At the time of the exchange I genuinely hated you, but that speaks more about me than you. I apologize for the undeserved hatred.